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renaee17 |
What if JD had been cast as Duncan ... |
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I was looking at the VM site on IMDB.com in the trivia section, and while all of it is very interesting, I came upon a little nugget of interesting trivia. It says that JD actually auditioned for the role of Duncan. So what if that would have happened? Do you think we would all be infected with VD today? I know it doesn't really matter, but it's fun to think about all the possible directions that the show could have went in if JD had gotten the role of Duncan.
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JenniferH |
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I honestly think that if Jason had gotten the role (we've heard two different takes on why he didn't), that Duncan would be the charismatic hero of the show and everything that happened in the first season would have been completely bought by the fans and everyone would love Duncan as much as Rob expected people to. And that VD would not have that nickname and that they truly would be the huge couple that everyone adored.
In fact, I think that if Jason was playing the role that VD would have more fans than Logan/Veronica, because there are people who did and still do have issues with the OPJ period of Logan and can't get past that. And viewers are suckers for the first love/true love story which would have TOTALLY been a huge hit with Jason in the role of Duncan. (And they totally would not be called VD.) |
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sunworshipper |
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I don't know if VD would have been bigger than V/L. There's just something magical about watching unlikely people being attracted to each other. Many people love to see the bad guy shown to have a heart and/or to redeem himself. Put those two elements together and mix with chemistry between the actors, and pow!
I think I'd like Veronica and JD Duncan but I'm not sure I'd love them. There's also the woobie factor with Logan but there I think a JD Duncan would have garnered more sympathy from fans than the TD version ever did. It's hard to feel sorry for a robot. eta: I meant that VD with JD might not have been as big as V/L with JD is. I hadn't considered the possibility of Logan (with a different actor) still hooking up with Veronica on the show. But now that I do, I think JD's chemistry with KB prevents that. Rob Thomas didn't have V/L in mind when the show started and I think JD would have made VD the OTP of the show. |
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sweetiepie1019 |
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I think that if had been switched, and JD got Duncan and TD got Logan, LoVe would have never got off the ground. It's a hard couple to make work in the first place, as we can sadly attest to, and you have to have a lot of charisma. Also, I'm one of those people that if Duncan weren't such a block of wood and Logan so amazing, I would've gone for the whole "true love" bit myself.
However, if JD got Duncan and another charismatic actor got Logan, I couldn't say. It would've been harder, that's for sure. But I think I can safely say I'd still love Logan. The rape/sister thing was just something I could never get over. So I'm insanely glad that things turned out the way they did. |
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kdeweb |
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I agree with everyone else that if JD were cast in the role of Duncan, we would all be saying Logan who?
JD is simply an amazing actor that can convey more with a simple glance or a tilt of the head than a lot of other actors can do with a few pages of dialogue. I am a first love kind of gal. I was inclined by nature to root for Duncan from the outset. But Logan/Jason completely blew me away with his complex nature and hidden depth. Jason made Logan who he is onscreen. And if he were cast as Duncan, he would have brought just as much life to that character. |
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SeluciaV |
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I wholeheartedly believe that the majority of fans would have been VD "true love stories never have endings" fans because we would have had JD's considerable talents to bring depth and complexity to the role, in addition to the amazing chemistry between JD and KB. However, I have to also agree with what sweetiepie1019 said:
Quote: Aside from TD's acting--or lack thereof--my biggest problem with the whole VD plot was the rape/sister plot. I would have a hard time being sympathetic to that regardless of how much I loved a character. Logan's made me love him despite some truely shady things he's done, but (THANK GOD), he's never crossed a line like that. So, I too am so glad things worked out the way they did! |
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bklyangel |
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I have a really hard time seeing JD playing Duncan, it just wouldn't work. I also don't think that even if he was Duncan VD would be a big deal, neither would LoVe (without JD) I think people would have become WeeVer fans. Lets just thanl our lucky stars that JD took the role of Logan....not that their is anything wrong with WeeVer.
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JenniferH |
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Well, I don't think the rape/sister thing would have happened. RT said that Logan was not supposed to be who he was, he was just supposed to be Veronica's antagonist and that's it. I also believe that Logan was originally supposed to be the one who raped Veronica and it WAS going to be unequivocably rape because he drugged her. The story was written way too much as rape in the beginning and to this day, RT refers to it as rape and if it was supposed to be Duncan and notrape from the beginning, it wouldn't have been pushed so darkly as rape to begin with.
And I don't believe that there ever would have been an inkling of Logan/Veronica at all had Jason not been playing the role. I guess, my bottom-line is that regardless of what character Jason was playing, he would have wound up with Kristen's Veronica because chemistry like theirs is so rare. |
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trueblueLoVe |
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I agree that the show would have been completely different if Jason had been cast as Duncan. People who loved that ' first love ' idea would have been very happy. Jason is such a charismatic actor he would have made the role of Duncan the standout leading male. But Teddy Dunn has all the appeal of wet socks & if not for Jason, then being cast for Logan, this show probably wouldn't have lasted a season.
However, I am with sweetpie1019 who said " The rape/sister thing was just something I could never get over. " It still makes me angry how the show brushed off the rape as being consentual & Duncan confused over it. Having a different actor in the role, even one as gifted as Jason, would not change my dislike for that storyline. I really believe things happen for a reason & thankfully Jason was chosen for the part of Logan. His chemistry with Kristen changed the course of the show. Then a little Ship called LoVe was formed & soon set out to sail. It was tossed & turned in some rough waters but continues to grow in spite of what RT throws at it. |
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holly96 |
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Quote: Did RT say this somewhere, or is this just your opinion? I do remember reading that Logan was originally just the antagonist, but I don't remember anything about the rape. I think I also recall somewhere that the ATttD resolution was set from the beginning. Whether or not people believe that is a different issue. But they did have the question of Veronica's paternity set up pretty much from the start. Anyway, I, too, think that if JD had been Duncan VD would have flown better, but I'm not sure it would have ever been as wildly popular as L/V is. I think part of the popularity of L/V is the set up from S1 and the way the characters relate to each other, in addition to the scorching chemistry. All that would have been drastically different for VD. But at the same time I have a hard time even conceiving of JD playing Duncan or anyone else but JD playing Logan, because to me Logan is JD and JD is Logan, so it's hard to predict what would have happened or what audience reaction would have been to any given storyline. |
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JenniferH |
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ETA per Holly's question ...
Quote:It's my opinion based on the early dynamics, changes in the show because of Logan's popularity and Duncan's lack as well as the fact that RT continues to this day to refer to what happened to Veronica as rape, which means, in his mind as conceived, Veronica was raped. It was rape, period, no shades of grey. It had to evolve because of the casting dynamics. I really believe that Duncan was NOT supposed to be Veronica's rapist, I think it was supposed to be Logan. It was said a zillion times before ATttD aired that it had to be one of the male leads or it just wouldn't have been a satisfying conclusion. (Not that what we got was satisfying, but whatever). Keith was out because, duh, he's her dad and not a sicko. Wallace was out because he wasn't in Neptune yet. Weevil was out because there's no way he would have been at an 09er party and not have it been talked about. Which left Logan and Duncan. Duncan was conceived as the great OTP love interest the show. Duncan was the hero, Duncan was the younger show's male lead, the show's romantic male lead. THAT was the plan. Logan was conceived as the jackass who barely had a soul. Logan's point was only and always supposed to be just as Veronica's antagonist. Logan was not supposed to have the larger role he had. He was NOT supposed to be the younger show's male lead, the show's romantic male lead. (And all of this, RT's has said to some degree or other in various interviews.) That changed when Teddy couldn't handle the complexity of the role. Added to that, there was no chemistry between he and Kristen romantically. And most importantly, Jason Dohring skyrocketed into viewer's hearts and a big, big portion of the audience fell in love with Logan and went bonkers over the potential pairing of Logan and Veronica. And so the original plan changed -- Logan became the show's younger male lead, the romantic male lead. Which left them with a quandary. What about Veronica's rape? It HAD to be Logan or Duncan or the viewers would feel gypped. It just had to be. Logan had been forgiven for so much, but raping Veronica? Drugging her and raping her? So few would have accepted that, I wouldn't have accepted it. I would have turned off the show, stopping watching it because they ruined my favorite character and I could NEVER ship he and Veronica again. And I know I wouldn't have been alone. Which left Duncan. So they tweaked it to make it "notrape," but still involve both Logan and Duncan, but in a way that could allow most viewers to not vilify either one. (For the rape -- I think they so fucked up by doing the next morning and Duncan ran off like the cowardly weasel he is, but this is about the rape, not the morning after.) Bottom-line is that I do not think for one second that Duncan (as played by Jason, when most viewers would be all into Duncan/Veronica like nobody's business) would have been responsible for what happened to Veronica. So if Jason had played the role, the rape thing wouldn't have come into play. And the sister thing would have played out differently, because Jason has the capability to do the shades and the depth of the character ... unlike Teddy. Sigh, really, Teddy's not a bad actor. He just was hopelessly out of his depth playing such a complex role. It takes an exceptionally gifted actor to make a character like that fly. Teddy Dunn does not fit that category. |
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kdeweb |
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Quote: I agree trueblueLoVe. It is highly irresponsible to make the rape a seasonal arc (thus a Big Damn Deal) and then to completely drop it because Dullnut didn't mean to do it as if he spilled coffee on her favorite blouse or something. In this day and age that is just remarkably stupid. I am totally slamming the writers on this because it goes far beyond my enjoyment of a tv series to pooh-poohing rape as if it isn't important. How many times did we see the flashbacks of the morning after? How many times did we hear the pain in Veronica's voice when she did the voice overs describing it? ETA: Quote: ITA Jennifer. Rape cannot be forgiven. I have a problem with another well known show that we aren't supposed to talk about completely glossing over an attempted rape because he was in oh so much pain and why the lead should have NEVER been around, much less been with, that character after that. I would have hated Logan if he were a rapist. And I think you are probably right that it was rewritten to not make him so. |
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holly96 |
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Heh. Jennifer, you edited to clarify just as I was replying again. So thanks for answering my question. I get now that you have just deduced as such about Logan originally being the rapist and it was not specifically laid out somewhere. That's really what I was wondering. I'm not really going to comment on the specifics, because although you make good points and a logical argument, I'm just not convinced that that was their original plan for the rape. I'm a tough sell, I can't help it, and at this point I'm not terribly interested in thinking a lot more about it.
The love interest aspect is a different story. On that I totally agree that the main love interest was originally supposed to be Duncan, I think that's clear for a lot of reasons (including one you didn't mention, that UPN specifically wanted a "pretty boy" actor for the role and that's why they cast TD, although he never did anything for me). And Logan was always going to be just the antagonist and a more minor role, but I do have to quibble with one thing: Quote:I think that might be overstating it a tad, or at least not something that lasted past being picked up from the pilot. It seems clear that from fairly early on they were going to give him depth, since both WoC and RotK, which added a lot to Logan's character, were early episodes. So I suppose they could have changed their conception of Logan at some point between the very start of the project and writing past the pilot. And I know I just said a couple paragraphs ago that I didn't want to think more about the rape, so I'm probably just shooting myself in the foot, but out of curiousity, if Duncan had not been the rapist (not!rapist, whatever), what would have been the point of the paternity storyline? Just another, unconnected mystery? Or a way to tie Lianne into the whole Lilly's murder storyline (which it never really did very effectively, other than getting her out of town)? Solely for the purpose of having Duncan break up with V preseason? It just seems like the way it ended up, the paternity storyline was mainly a setup for the ATttD resolution. So I guess the question in my mind, if I were going to believe that they changed their mind about the rapist, would be when did they do so (in relation to writing/shooting episodes)? |
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JenniferH |
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The point of the paternity was to establish the TWU WUV story aspect of VD. The obstacles they have to face, people (their parents), circumstances getting in the way of their fated destiny to be together forever. And by having them together, then breaking up for reasons beyond their control, the viewers get to see them work their way back to one another. Blah blah blah. Watch the VD scenes in the first four-six episodes, there are all these longing looks and it's clear that that was the set-up.
I didn't mention about the pretty-boy aspect because I just wasn't going into specifics at all about why Duncan was conceived as the love interest. I was just stating that fact, not backing it up because I figured most knew the reasons behind it. As for the OPJ with barely soul. No, that was the plan. Originally conceived, Logan wasn't even Lilly's boyfriend, he wasn't Duncan's best friend, he wasn't Veronica's friend. There was no fab four. Logan was a smarter version of Dick as fleshed out in the last couple of episodes of season one. That was the original conception. They changed it and made him D's best friend, Lilly's bf which led to the whole fab four thing. The abuse stuff was the set-up for Aaron and could have been acheived without the woobification of Logan. Yes, people still would have felt for him, but not even remotely to the degree if we didn't see him as DK's best friend, Lilly's suffering boyfriend, the good guy he was in the fab four period, the softening in TWoC. When I say original conception, I mean, original, before Jason was cast. Those changes were made AFTER he was cast in the role. |
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sweetiepie1019 |
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I don't know if they changed the rapist, or notrapist as the case may be. I do think that if they changed it, it was probably very early on due to the obvious chemistry between LoVe. But I think that Logan's character was supposed to go from evil jackass and slowly evolve back into V's friend, but still snark-tastic. A bit like Weevil, but less dangerous. If he was supposed to be totally jackass-y, they wouldn't have had that moment in the fourth epi at the funeral. Plus, it would've been complete script overhaul to get them to making out by epi 18. So I think they just moved him from being the eventual friend to the eventual boyfriend, not made him the horrible enemy to the eventual boyfriend. Because would've been quite a bit of work.
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JenniferH |
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The thing is that the fourth episode would not have been written yet when Jason was cast. The only thing written was the PILOT where Logan was BY FAR the worst and most OPJ we ever saw him. THAT was the original conception of Logan. They added the scene where Veronica is confronted by Logan in the library AFTER Jason was cast and they decided to make him Lilly's boyfriend (and added Logan to the quick b-day party flashback scene).
I'm talking about the characters conceived based on the original pilot before casting was done. All of the softening (even the pilot stuff) came AFTER Jason was cast. I'm talking pre-casting. |
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holly96 |
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I did know that about Logan not being Lilly's boyfriend, Duncan's best friend, etc., I just forgot. So I think we're on the same page now about those changes being made after JD was cast (and before anything other than the pilot was written).
But that leads me to have one other question. In your mind was Logan the rapist pre-casting (and was that changed at the same time as the other stuff or later)? Because if Logan was a more minor character before JD was cast and the changes in Logan's relationships with Lilly, Duncan, and Veronica were made, than your point about the rapist needing to be a main character wouldn't really fit, since Logan wouldn't have been any bigger a character than, say, Dick. Unless him being involved in the plot mainly only to introduce Aaron and to be an occassional antagonist to Veronica is enough to warrant him being the rapist. |
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JenniferH |
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Quote:I think so. Because he still would have been a regular cast member and that is what the audience expected, one of the major players to be responsible. |
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sunworshipper |
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Maybe the idea would have been for the viewers to feel sympathy for Logan and for Veronica to slowly become friendly with him again and then -- boom -- she finds out he raped her. And then Logan commits suicide at the bridge. Not so different from what actually happened except the very end.
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PolarTruckin |
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I don't think you can talk about original concepts before the show aired as if they prove something. Veronica was originally a guy when RT was working out the specifics of the show. Concepts are always works in progress until they are screened. Only the Pilot was written and then you say Logan was given more of a role. Why is that? The Pilot was filmed and maybe RT realised that with such a volatile character you would constantly have such great stories and thus fleshed him out more. The fact is if Logan was originally the rapist then the show was not even formed as a concept yet, it wasn't a complete show - it doesn't prove anything that RT came up with more things about his character post-Pilot.
To me, Logan would never have been the rapist for the sheer fact it was too obvious. It would be like making Dick the rapist. He's such a mysogynist that everyone would automatically think it was him and if Logan had no depth he would be the same kind of mysogynist. We would have all been talking about the possibility he was the rapist too early in the season for it to be the case. No matter how Logan - in concept form - developped by the time Credit Where Credit Is Due was filmed, he would not have been Veronica's rapist. And it doesn't really matter since the show was obviously not finalised at that point. I don't think RT changed his mind mid-season and that's all that matters. Once the show was complete and it was a working unit, Logan was never the rapist, he had more depth and we were seeing that despite his psychotic jackass exterior there was something more underneath. This show is all about the 'GOTCHA' plots. Where we are shown the obvious suspect and then discover the perpetrator was someone we never expected. Even if Duncan wasn't meant to be the rapist, that - to me - makes it obvious that Logan would never have been the rapist. His hatred of Veronica made him a prime suspect, he WAS her prime suspect even with the softening down of his charcacter on the show and it would have been WORSE if they'd never been romantically involved. For that reason, I don't think RT ever would have chosen him as the culprit. To me, he didn't choose Duncan as the rapist because he realised that would mean Duncan and Veronica true love would be crushed forever (clearly that's not the case after season two). He chose Duncan as the rapist because it was so shocking, because it would be the most uncomfortable way for Duncan to reveal he had always known that Veronica was his sister, and because it was his first really annoying GOTCHA. It's shocking and unsatisfying because of the lack of fall out. But I do think Duncan as the rapist is appropriate for season one themes about shattering illusions, things aren't always what they appear to be. As disappointed as I was with what happened after A Trip to the Dentist, I think thematically the choice of Duncan was perfect and important. They just didn't utilise what they had as they should have, by making Veronica see that the past she was nostalgic for was nothing more than a glimmer - an illusion. I also don't think we can really speculate on whether or not Logan would have sold Duncan better than TD. Is he a better actor? Damn straight he is. He's also more charismatic. But he's also very intense and Duncan's not meant to be intense. Duncan is meant to stand idly by, so I think it might have been incongruent that someone so dynamic was in his role. I'm not insulting JD I just think it was a better compliment to his charisma that they gave him Logan and built Logan into such a vibrant character to make use of JD's strengths. We can't say we would have liked VD better if Jason was in the role. I'm not sure how much of my attraction for Logan is Jason's portrayal, but I do like complex characters like his in other shows so I know that there are other actors who could perform layers like he does. I would still have loved Logan if Jason didn't play him, but I'm glad he got the role. Jason up against some other Logan? We can't say who would win because we haven't seen it. I am actually really tired of shows that sell love with "Destiny: Romeo and Juliet" storylines. What I like about Veronica Mars is that she has a romantacised version of love with Duncan but it's completely wrong for her. Everyone knows it's wrong for her except her. That's much more complex than true-love-Romeo-and-Juliet-destiny. This way, loving someone is about also accepting how you've changed and grown as a character, and rejecting romantic illusions she had as a child. It's much more mature in a way. For that reason, I know I probably still would not have shipped VD even if Jason was in the role. I think about how Duncan stopped speaking to her with no explanation and she continued to blame herself for that, never confronting him and it makes me angry even in concept form. That's not love and I resent that she believed that for so long and didn't really get ANGRY with Duncan. I know I would never have shipped VD and it has nothing to do with Teddy Dunn. In a way Duncan reminds me of season three Max in Roswell. Jason Behr was a good actor, in my opinion, but I hated how selfish Max was most of that season and I hated Max/Liz together. It all felt like bullshit in the same way that Duncan/Veronica feels like bullshit. Both Veronica and Liz forgave too much with no real reason to offer forgiveness merely because this was their dream guy who they'd waited so long to be with and who were they to call him on his crap? I am bringing this example up merely so you know that an actor who is not as wooden as Teddy Dunn by any means sucks just as hard in a similar role. We might have all grudgingly respected Jason Dohring but hated his idle character none-the-less if we watched the show. There is no way to make an accurate assumption about that. ((| Slightly Askew | My LiveJournal |))
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SlayerVixen |
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Hmmm I think if JD had been cast as Duncan, I'd still hate the character. I think JD is an amazing actor but as mentioned before the whole not!rape thing has alot to do with why I hate Duncan so much. I just can't sympathise with him at all. Maybe if JD was playing him I'd feel a little more for him but when push comes to shove, he let his friends mock Veronica, left her searching for her underwear and dumped her without a word?? I'm sorry but no, how RT can have Duncan penned as 'a good guy wracked with guilt and responsibility' is beyond me. To me he's no more than a coward.
Similarly I have an intense hatred for Spuffy, I'm in a very very tiny minority but Spike tried to rape her, that's how I lost alot of respect for the character. The heroine, the strong female lead. Alot of people say 'he didn't have a soul' Pfft who cares he still did it and that's why I could never ever ever ship those two. I hate when people say L/V is the new Spuffy because I didn't like them. What I'm trying to say is no matter how much I like or liked an actor/character, if they do something to hurt my role model/the main character the way Duncan/Spike did, I find it unforgivable. I really do. Am I making sense?? I mean hey I get that alot more people would have probably shipped V/D but not me. Even from very early on in S1 I had a problem with him, JD would sure have made him alot easier to watch but trying to envision him like Duncan is I dunno its surreal because I love Logan so very much. JD is an amazing actor, TD not so much. Things would have been alot different in the fandom that's for sure but well not for me. I'm not into the whole 'twu wuv' thing I hated Joey/Dawson in DC and they were penned down as 'soulmates'. So yeah, I'm glad things turned out the way they did. If JD would have been Duncan we definately wouldn't have had L/V and that would have been SUCH a BIG loss to fandom in general, they are definately one of the best OTPs ever and even the media see that. |
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